The Ugly Aftermath

Comments

[這個好]
Great post! And fair, too. I called the media out for being sexist toward Sen. Clinton and Gov. Palin as well. Thank goodness New Zealand is well over that—we had two consecutive female prime ministers, and at one point, every branch (executive, legislative and judicial) were headed by women. When we saw the US coverage we were pretty shocked at the media’s pre-suffrage attitude.
Hence the clothing thing also puzzled us down here. We now know that the clothes were supplied by the Republican Party for the Governor. The media have done a terrible job of repairing the damage to her reputation. Even Sen. Biden’s haircuts were not cheap! And working in fashion, I can tell you that the President-elect’s suits are pretty darned swish (and expensive).
About gay marriage, I think the way Californians voted was a backlash to judges legislating from the bench earlier this year. There is, as you point out, little comparison to the race question—at the time I pointed out the deficiencies in the judgement and how the judges left room to be shot down. Well, now it has happened and you are right about the Mormons being a pretty small group that would not have affected the way so many voted.
I am fairly strict in my constitutional interpretation so I agree with you on the Second Amendment issue.
[this is good]
To be fair, I made fun of Hillary Clinton's pantsuits a hell of a lot more than I talked about how Sarah Palin dressed. Frankly, I could care less how Sarah Palin dresses or how much it costs. In fact, I could care less about Sarah Palin at all anymore. Really, I have a hard time thinking of her as much more than "dumb as paint" at this point. Both sides can spare me the in depth analysis. Alaska, a quaint, folksy demeanor, Down's syndrome babies, all of it. None of it matters. It's all just a smokescreen for "dumb as paint." I'm just glad Alaska took her so Idaho didn't have to own up. In fact, I'm glad they re-elected Ted Stevens, too. They're the one state in the union Idaho can be proud it's not, as far as how we're seen from everywhere else.

As for where I was going with this in the first place (I almost forgot 'cause it's late and I'm not "all here" tonight), Hillary Clinton's pantsuits are just funny. I can't really explain it, but they are.

And the second amendment thing is one of the main reasons I could never be a "Democrat." Both parties have their "pet amendments," both to champion and to completely shit all over. I don't really support shitting all over any of them, especially not one that's the only thing keeping the people at least a fraction of "equal" with the cops.
[this is good]
I agree 100% with your last sentence. The problem with the news these days (as if there were just one problem), is that there's too much of it. Having multiple, competing 24-hr news channels has led to a proliferation of non-news, and pundits going off in every direction, about everything. If I had a TV I'd be crazy by now.

You better watch your step, buddy--I love Alaska. It has nothing to do with Sarah Palin, of course. It is by far the most uniformly libertarian place I've ever lived, and moose roam the cities (OK, so we lived in a smallish city--I don't know if you see moose in downtown Anchorage). I love it.

I don't think Palin is as dumb as she was meant to seem, but you're certainly entitled to your opinion, and heaven knows you have plenty of evidence to back it up. I doubted very much that you cared about her clothes, but you have to admit, much ink has been spilled about it. I don't know if I think Hillary's pantsuits are funny per se. I think the word "pantsuit" is pretty funny, and I think Hillary Clinton wearing pretty much nothing but pantsuits was also mildly amusing. Maybe I'm just not a pantsuit kind of person. I don't like to be all matchy-matchy from head to toe. Makes me feel icky.

I mostly avoid the TV news. It's the online stuff that always gets me. I get sucked in, as if my monitor were Alice's looking glass and there are thousands of articles out there telling me to read them.
Hah! I wasn't being entirely serious about Alaska being a bad place, and I guess I was wrong about Ted Stevens being re-elected already. Although the fact that they're still recounting doesn't look that good for them. But Minnesota and Georgia are in the same boat, so I guess I can't hold it against them too hard. But you have to admit, they've done a hell of a job making it look that way in the past year or so. I mean, we have Larry Craig and all, but he's no Ted Stevens or Sarah Palin.

I really do think Sarah Palin is that dumb. Maybe dumber than she looks on TV. I mean, I don't think I've even heard more than a handful of coherently formed sentences from her mouth. I've heard even fewer coherent ideas conveyed in them. Half the time, I was in the same boat as everyone else wondering what the hell she was talking about.

But as for Alaska, I've been harsh enough on it for today. So I'll just say I'd love to go there. I really would. It has nothing to do with the politics. It just seems like it's probably the most legitimately "wild" place we've got left in this country.

It is wild. I think you'd like it.

I think I thought the same thing about Palin as you until this past week. She's been giving way too many interviews this past week, but it's like a totally different person from the earlier interviews. The sentences are not only complete, but they are linked together in comprehensible ways. Of course, I don't agree with some of what comes out, but at least it's something you could agree or disagree with. Also, if she did allow herself to be managed in such a way that she was supposed to appear stupider than she is, then that seriously says something bad about her character. Of course, McCain agreed to play a similar game, not dumbing himself down but making himself appear more far right than he is, which also says bad things about his character. It's just the more than comes out about how the campaign managers were thinking and running their campaign, the less I think anything their campaign came out with was genuine or honest. All campaigns do that to some extent, but this seems really rather excessive to me. Anyway, so I guess I'm basing my reassessment of her on both the interviews she has given since the election and on the fact that her managers and handlers have been shown to be such complete assholes.

But anyway. Enough about her.

Yeah. She's a silly person who stands for silly things and silly people. Silliness!
[這個好]
Quite agreed on Sarah Palin. The fact that the anti-Republican media can only use her faith in God as a joking point indicates the rest of the interviews were comprehensible.

Yes, exactly. In her last CNN interview (with Wolf Blitzer, I think--it was last week), she said something about Bill Ayers again, and Campbell Brown asked why she's still talking about this. And Jeffrey Toobin correctly pointed out: "Because we keep asking her about it."

I like Jeffrey Toobin.

Respectfully, you piss me off.

The guy shot while walking his dog down my block the other night was not shot by a hunter. Hopefully, what Obama meant, was that in places where guns are solely being used by people to kill and terroize each other, it might not be a bad idea to apply some new thinking to gun control and just because a small percentage of Americans enjoy shooting animals doesn't mean we all should have to live in the crossfire. It's like the abortion issue hijacking the government. Or Tobacco companies and the smokers. Why should the rest of us have to breathe second hand smoke with our dinner for years and years just because it had always been people's "right" to smoke in public places.

I work among mostly Mormon hunters in the rural west. I have no complaint with them for the most part and can understand why hunting and responsible gun ownership is part of their culture and gay marriage is something abhorant to them that needs to be banned. Especially since a letter was read aloud in their churches just before the election that told them to vote yes, a letter written by people who they believe speak directly to god. But most of them have never known a gay person. Anyone who realizes they are gay either gets the hell out of town or suppresses it.

And they don't live in the city I do where 75 people have been murdered by guns in the last nine months. I'm tired of hearing the pop pop pop of second amendment advocates while I lay in bed and wondering if my elderly mother is being pistol whipped again. This idea that women are out hunting to put food on their tables is completely ridiculous to the 90 percent of the population that the proliferation of guns affect adversly. Obama is not going to come to rural Idaho, Arizona, or Alaska and pry the gun out of a mother's hands if she is using it to keep rabbits in the pot for her family. But most of us wouldn't mind at all if some stricter legislation was considered so the damn things weren't lying around everywhere for kids to shoot their parents with.

I think your message would have been just as powerful and would be more greatly considered by the original poster without the first paragraph.
I can understand, however, your point of view. My second cousin was shot at NIU earlier this year (and lived to tell the tale).
What I do know is that in Switzerland, there’s probably less gun control yet the population are more armed than your countrymen are. Yet the folks there seem to control their urges of shooting kids and others quite readily.
There needs to be something less akin to gun control and more akin to creating conditions where such violence is unnecessary. Education is one area, obviously; the socioeconomic situation in these violent cities is another. I am only saying this as an observer from afar, but I always look at these arguments with some cynicism because there are countries that seem to do OK despite leaving their citizens fairly free to bear arms.
As to the gay community, it’s a semantics thing there, right? The gays here seem to be pretty happy with their civil unions given the law gives them the rights of married couples, and they celebrate them as any straight couple. I understood that it was the same in states like California but people are arguing over the meaning of a word rather than focusing on their potential happiness.
Just reading about Swiss gun control because I can’t totally appreciate the US context.
I imagine this page is written by an American: ‘Switzerland also has rather strict gun control laws. In Switzerland a permit is required in order to purchase a weapon (The permit shows that you are at least 18 and don't have a criminal record). A permit is also required to carrry a weapon. Such a permit is mostly issued to people who work in security-type occupations. To obtain this permit, you have to demonstrate that you need to carry a weapon and that you know how to handle a gun safely and have knowledge of the law regarding firearms use (source). Soldiers in the Swiss Army are required to store their military weapons at home under lock and key and to undergo regular training. Strict gun laws in Switzerland minimize the dangers of gun ownership.’
Call me ignorant but does this mean that Americans don’t need a permit to buy guns? I wouldn’t call the Swiss laws that strict apart from those associated with the military and national service. But it surprises me that in a US context it is regarded as strict. Strange.

Do you mean the line about pissing me off or the next paragraph about the guy getting shot? Either way, another innocent fellow was gunned down walking his dog the other night. And she does piss me off.

A couple years ago another guy down the block took a gun and killed a few of his professors. I used to see the shooter walking his dog actually. The one time I talked to him he complained about having prostate problems. A few week later he takes five guns onto campus and kills a few middle aged women. I listen to hunters grouse about potentially losing their rights nearly every day and am tired of it.

As far as the original poster goes, I find her to be one of the more erudite, succinct and realistic voices in the blogosphere and consider it a treat to be oft aggravated by her matter of factly clear prose even as I marvel at it in disagreement. I'm not worried about her considering my post though since she doesn't seem flexible on this issue.

And you're observation on the gay situation is mostly right. If they'd just drop the word "marriage" and concentrate on their rights they'd be better off. Here's one of the better posts I've read on it in awhile.

I'm actually not totally inflexible on gun control. This may come as a surpise to you, but I've actually heard the same arguments, such as they are, that you've presented. However, my first response would be that America has a violent crime problem--with or without guns. Even if you discount all the gun crime, we still have some of the highest rates of violent crime in the world. Guns can facilitate crime in ways that other weapons cannot, but they are not the proximal or even indirect causes of crime or murder. Besides, already there are many constraints on the exercise of the right to bear arms (many, in fact, are federal law). And fat lot of good any of them seem to be doing. Primarily they create annoyances for those of us who are law-abiding and responsible gun owners and do very little to prevent the problems you're talking about. I don't think that all of the laws that we currently have violate the Second Amendment, but I don't think our propensity for violence is something we can legislate our way out of either. I think Jack Yan spoke to this issue already in his comment, too. (By the way, Jack, you do have to have a permit to have a gun. There is a federal waiting period of 5 days to buy a gun. There are background checks to see if you have a history of mental illness or felony convictions. There are laws regarding constraints on carrying weapons out of your house, including breaking them down for travel. Some places require proof that you've taken gun safety classes before you can buy a gun or buy a hunting license. You cannot give a gun as a gift, which in theory allows the ownership of a gun to always be traceable. And so forth. Some of these regulations, though, you can get around--and criminals do--by buying a gun either on the black market or from a private seller, such as through the classified ads or at a gun show.)

In some ways it seems to me that the Democrat answer is always more legislation and regulation, and I am against that in theory and in practice I don't think it always works very well, either. I'm not making assumptions about your political affiliation, but Obama's.

My point about what Obama said was just what I said: He wouldn't make such a broadly worded statement about any of our other rights, or at least I don't think he would or else we really ought not have elected him to the presidency. You could come up with perfectly legitimate arguments about why we should require voters to pass literacy tests, but we don't allow that because the constraint it puts on the right to vote we think is too high (and was racially motivated when they were first instituted). Most people don't even favor having to show picture ID to vote, let alone passing a literacy test. You can come up with a number of perfectly legitimate arguments for constraints on freedom of speech, too, especially what is known as "hate speech," but in general we preserve the principle that the harm that some speech does is not enough to warrant a general constraint on the individual right. I could go all through the Bill of Rights this way--sometimes there are legitimate arguments you could make in favor of constraining individual rights, and in many cases the general security of society would be the most outstanding. But in every case, we have to ask ourselves if the sacrifice of liberty is worth the amount of security gained. Democrats, especially urban ones, will always say that in the case of the Second Amendment (and usually no other) it is worth it. Personally, I don't think the tradeoff is usually worth it, and with this particular case, unless or until I see some kind of hard evidence that more gun control laws actually decrease the amount of violent crime cities experience, then it's not a trade I think is worth making.

Besides, I find your attitude to be similar to many that I've already heard. Ah, it's just this little minority who still does these things (and, by the way, of all the hunters I've known, none of them do it because they enjoy killing animals, although I understand this is a common misconception. Enjoying hunting and enjoying killing are not the same). Because it's a minority (and a mostly rural, white minority at that), then the right is somehow less important to protect? I don't find that to be a defensible position. On almost every other case, the liberal position is that the rights of the minority are worth protecting even against the opposition or at cost to the majority because if rights are only determined by the will of the majority, then civil rights aren't really worth much. To me, they mean a lot, no matter how tired you get of hearing us grouse about it.

It doesn't surprise me at all that you've heard the same arguments since people are getting gunned down all over the country every hour of every day. An 8 year old Arizona boy just shot his father in the face the other afternoon in fact. Four times (he had to reload each time) Nobody understands it. His father was reportedly teaching him to hunt and was by all accounts a hell of a guy. I'm sure this "violent crime" would have been just as bad if he just threw a tantrum and there wasn't a gun cabinet in the house.

Again with the anecdotes. The plural of anecdote is not data. That crime may not have happened. There are others that may not have happened. Why did an 8-year-old have that kind of access to a gun? We had guns in my house when I was 8, but I couldn't get to them without adult help, and I doubt my dad would have given me one when I was having a temper tantrum. This is a tragedy, no doubt, but it reminds me of the people who give their kids apparently free access to matches and them blame a cartoon when the kids burn down the house. Where is the parental responsibility and supervision here? And, again, the idea of a civil right guaranteed by the Constitution suggests that we don't go around constricting people's rights because some people are incredibly irresponsible with them. If we did, of course, cars would have to be the first things to go, followed promptly by alcohol. Cars and alcohol are used irresponsibly more often than guns are and cause more fatalities, some of which are just as tragic as the stories you keep citing. We don't ban them, and we have far more constraints on the purchase and ownership of guns than we do for alcohol (and probably even for cars) because we believe there are compelling reasons not to ban them, liberty among them (and in the case of cars, utlity). But if tragedy and death are your real concerns, then by all means start lobbying to ban them.

Guns scare people, particularly people who don't grow up around them, and that's the fear that usually drives gun control. It's the same fear that you're trying to use to sway me. I don't, however, think it's wise or reasonable to give our government and our civil liberties over to fear.

Again, there are some types of gun control I think are reasonable. Although I haven't thought long and hard about it, right now I don't think it would be unreasonable to require that gun owners keep guns locked up and out of the potential reach of minors or to use those child-safety locks on triggers, because neither significantly constrains the right to keep and bear arms. The problem with that, though, is enforcement. Usually we would only know someone was violating this law after the fact, after a tragedy like this one. So, should we go around just searching the homes of gun owners at random to make sure they're in compliance? I think this is an unreasonable breach of Constitutional rights, but there is no other way to enforce it.

So, listen, I don't want to be rude, but you can post stories of tragic murders and accidents here all night long, and that isn't going to change my mind, because they say absolutely nothing about the general principle of civil rights or the link between gun ownership or gun control and violent crime. I actually just looked up gun ownership by state and murder rates by state and surprise! In general, states with higher gun ownership (Idaho, Wyoming, Montana, et al) have the lowest murder rates and vice versa (this doesn't hold absolutely true for a couple of states, one of which is Louisiana). So, I'm not sure it's going to do Illinois any good to pass more gun control when they already have very low gun ownership and yet fairly high crime. If gun control isn't going to do any good--and, overall, it probably will not--then it is not worth constraining civil rights. It's unclear how much gun control (or how much more, rather) you're advocating, and I am not now or ever arguing that there should be none at all. I have, in fact, argued previously that the gun-show loophole to the Brady legislation should be closed so that all gun-permit applicants would have to go through the background check (because there are valid reasons to prevent felons, especially, from buying guns). There would still be the black market, of course, but it would at least make it more difficult, and some police forces have had good success when they are able to pick up people for having guns without a permit.

I misspoke above. The federal 5-day waiting period expired once instant background checks became available through the FBI database. Some states, though, do still have waiting periods, especially for handguns.

Also, not all states require a permit. Some do, and as I mentioned just above, in some cases police have had success picking up potential offenders for carrying un-permitted weapons (and in many of those cases, they find the person they just picked up is also wanted for or suspected of another crime).

Sorry for my mistakes. It can be hard to summarize US gun laws because most of them are enacted at state and local levels, but I should have been more clear.

Goliard, I meant your first paragraph. I don’t know after reading your reply who pissed you off now, but I assumed you referred to GinBaby.
Hi GinBaby: thank you. I was mostly ignorant of the situation though I had heard about the waiting period. It seems that the controls there are not dissimilar to ours. I know we need permits, which I imagine must be akin to the states that also require them. We do have a problem with violent crime but not at the same level. Wikipedia (which is hardly accurate) says we are pretty ‘liberal’ with gun control. NationMaster says our crime rate (of murders using firearms) is 0·00173482 per 1,000 people; the US’s is 0·0279271 per 1,000 people. I know it is totally unscientific to base something on two countries and since I don’t know what is considered strict in terms of gun control!
Anecdotally, we think of Australia and the UK as stricter than us on gun control (again I do not know the definition of strict) but their rates are 0·00293678 and 0·00102579 respectively—both higher and lower than New Zealand. The Swiss figure is 0·00534117.
Totally unscientifically based on these figures and without a standard definition of strict gun control, I would say there is no correlation.

Yes, I see your point. I think, though, that you can compare among American states, since some gun control laws are left to the state and, more rarely, local levels. Those states that require permits and have waiting periods for handgun purchases are arguably "stricter" than other states that don't. They also in almost every case have higher murder rates than states that don't (although murder isn't the only crime that guns figure into, of course, and not all murders even in America are done with guns, so it's an imperfect comparison). The case can be made that they have stricter gun laws because of the high crime rate, but still the gun laws don't necessarily seem to be helping. There is some evidence that the background checks (the Brady Bill) are helping, which stands to reason because people with previous convictions and/or a history of mental illness (there are a few other things they check for that can block you from buying a gun, too, but those are the big ones) are probably less likely to be responsible gun owners in the future.

Comparisons across countries are much more difficult because different cultures have different attitudes and propensities to crime. America, especially urban America, is prone to violent crime, probably for a variety of reasons. America's non-gun homicide rate (5.5/100,000) is still vastly higher than Australia's (1.57) or New Zealand's (1.17).

[這個好]
Excellent points again—and that non-gun homicide rate is high. It again doesn’t point at gun control, but a propensity to violent crime that must have different origins.

Post a comment

Already a Vox member? Sign in

About Me

GinBaby
United States
Just sittin here pretendin I know shit.

My Groups

Neighborhood

Explore friends, family, friends & family, or entire neighborhood.

Archives